by Marina Kalashnikova, Viktor Kalashnikov
Nezavisimaia gazeta, 25 March 2002
The attention of the Russian public and authorities to matters of religion and the church has grown recently. The editors of NG asked Catholic Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz to discuss the social and spiritual problems of Russia that attend the new political challenges. This interview is the first very topical statement of the archbishop in Russian news media.
--Your Grace, you have just returned from USA. What was the goal of your trip and what were your impressions?
--I was there on invitation of the Conference of Bishops of USA. I thanked them for the help they have given us. I described the relations between Catholics and Orthodox in Russia. After all, they see and hear everything over there. I was received very warmly. On Sunday I was invited to the central mass in the chief cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Washington. When a bishop arrives in another diocese, he does not have the right to use his bishop's staff without the permission of the local bishop. I went to the church and was told that I should serve with my staff and from the bishop's chair. Of course, there was very great interest on the part of the press. One day I met with seven major publications.
--What does the American press focus its attention on?
--On why there is such a sharp reaction on the part of the Russian Orthodox church (RPTs) to the establishment of Catholic dioceses. I reminded them that when the famous statement by the Moscow patriarchate on this topic was published, the next day I gave my own answer to the points. I then was sent newspapers from USA and Germany where the patriarchate's statement and my response were printed side-by-side. Of course, many shrug their shoulders, not seeing the problem. They say, if there are dioceses of the Moscow patriarchate abroad, then why can there not be Catholic ones in Russia. Incidentally, recently some Italians visited me. They said that in the district of Milan Catholics turned over to Orthodox their own churches where the rectors are Catholic priests who had converted to Orthodoxy. The parishioners are Italians. For me, as well as for everybody, this is quite normal. Let people choose for themselves.
Americans also were interested in our relations with the authorities. They asked about the draft of the law by State Duma Deputy Alexander Chuev on traditional religions. True, we also do not know everything, since we are not permitted access to the legislative process. I told how after the establishment of the new structures I wrote a letter to President Putin and the assistant to the head of the Chief Directorate for Domestic Policy of the presidential administration, Sergei Abramov. I also wrote letters to the heads of both chambers of the Federal Assembly, Gennady Seleznev and Sergei Mironov, as well as to Patriarch Alexis II and Metropolitan Kirill. So far I have met with Abramov only and I received a response from Kirill's office in which Fr Vsevolod Chaplin sent me the text of the Moscow patriarchate's declaration.
--How was your conversation with Abramov?
--On 28 February we had a good conversation. He greeted me and wished me all the best and said that the restoration of the structures of the Catholic church does not violate Russian legislation and it was carried out in accordance with the international obligations of the Russian federation. The Vienna declaration of 1989 says that every state is obliged to grant religious organizations the right to organize their own structures in accordance with church standards. We also talked about the need for settling all conditions in order to normalize relations with RPTs.
--Can you say that America is a Christian country?
--Yes, of course. There also are many other religions there. The Catholic church is the largest, about 60 million people. Churches there are always filled to capacity. They have splendid accommodations for families, rooms for small children in which they listen to services by intercom. From the first months of life an infant is in church. Perhaps they do not understand everything, but this lays the foundation for subsequent religious life. In Moscow, unfortunately, I do not see anything like this. The charitable work also impresses me, which is conducted there with broad participation of volunteers in this activity. This also is a very serious thing that we must learn from the Catholic church of America.
--In what sense can the Catholic church be American?
--Of course, they do not talk that way officially. It's simply that they have their own special traditions. But this is a true church . . . .
--How does the Catholic church get along with the notorious American way of life in USA?
--It's hard to evaluate. After all, I go there only a week or two every year. But nevertheless it is obvious that the position of the Catholic church in American society is very, very strong and its voice is heard. The current president of the United States visited the home of Washington Cardinal Theodore McCarrick. Bush himself is not Catholic although there are Catholics in his family.
--How do you as a Catholic bishop relate to American political correctness that is associated with a certain view on life and a certain pattern of conduct? It has turned out that this has become important even outside the boundaries of USA.
--Well, you know, today much that is American has become of interest to the whole world. One would think that there also exists a Russian political correctness, but I have not heard of it. We all should instruct one another. Everybody has many things that could be borrowed.
--What do you think about American political liberalism? Americans have attached it even to Russian political life. The work of many institutions and institutes that they managed to create in Russia during the years of the Clinton administration has been embued with liberal doctrine.
--Nothing should simply be transplanted onto different soil. One must take account of the local conditions and mentality. Every place has its own laws. It's the same in church life. But on the other hand, we see in the apparent liberalism that in both USA and Europe very clear and definite rules operate.
Several years ago I flew with an American congressman from Moscow in economy class. During the stopover in New York we sat and talked. Nobody rushed up to him; nobody took him to a VIP room. When he left office, he became a citizen just like everybody else. I am not sure that a deputy of our State Duma would conduct himself in the same way. In our country the press often writes about the president's relatives, how they get away with much more than others.
Or here in Russia, a person's status determines whether he will be arrested by a police officer for violating traffic laws. That kind of thing does not happen over them; nor even in Poland or Lithuania.
--Incidentally, where are your roots?
--I was born in Belorussia. After I graduated from Leningrad Polytechnic Institute I worked in Vilnius and then studied in the seminary in Kaunas. I spent some time in Trakai [Lithuania]. In Lithuania every priest had to be assigned to some parish which would take care of him in the event, for example, he became sick. So I was assigned to the Trakai parish.
--Do you think that under a conservative administration in Russia there will be more order in relations with USA?
--Let's wait and see. But, judging by what I heard recently in USA, I would say the Catholic church over there is more content with the present government.
--How sincere was the reaction of people in USA to the events of 11 September?
--Last October I was in Rome for a council of bishops. A large delegation of bishops from USA was present and the New York cardinal was the principal speaker. In his address he especially expressed thanks to all churches for solidarity with the American people. Terrorism was discussed in the speeches. But at the same time it was emphasized that one must search for the roots of this terrorism. Because today there is both political and economic terrorism in the world. This time in Washington I said after a mass that all our whole society in Russia is together with the American people after the tragedy of 11 September. These words evoked a storm of applause. In church circles I heard that the American people were greatly pleased that Putin immediately phoned Bush after the terrorist acts. They realized and appreciated our solidarity.
--That is, their emotional reaction to friendly gestures from Moscow was not feigned?
--I recall that at the beginning of the 70s I was standing in line for tickets for soccer between USSR and FRG. People in line were saying that now we are playing soccer with the Germans against whom we fought. This was a quarter century after the war. Today only ten years have passed since the end of the cold war.
--What sort of thing is economic terrorism?
--Rich countries exploit poor countries. Twenty percent of the population of the planet gets eighty percent of the income. And vice versa. This is one of the manifestations of economic terrorism.
--That means that it is necessary to share justly?
--This already was done once in USSR. But it is still abnormal because some people have been enriched at the expense of others. This cannot be worked out simply by charity or redistribution. The church says that it is wrong consciously to exploit a poor person for one's own enrichment. What has happened in Russia in the case of privatization? What have the state and society gotten out of it? Morality must lie at the foundation of everything.
--Can the wealthy in Russia be reformed?
--The process is underway, but it is complex. The worst thing is that they do not want to hear about it. Not only in Russia, but in all countries, where the wealthy live their own lives. It is irrelevant that some of them may show up at a liturgy or sponsor a charitable project.
--And why do they attend liturgy?
--That also is a puzzle for me. Many of them do not even know how to cross themselves properly. They attend only for the sake of their political advantage.
--Do you have Catholic churches in mind?
--Such people do not attend our churches.
--On the whole, how are your relations with the authorities developing in Russia?
--On 24 January the pope conducted a day of prayer for peace in Assisi. We conducted similar prayers in the cathedral in Moscow. Representatives of thirteen confessions and religions were involved, including RPTs, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and protestants. I also invited representatives of the secular powers. I sent invitations to the duma, the Federation Council, the presidential administration, and the mayor's office. The only response came from the plenipotentiary for human rights, Mironov, from whose office a representative came. If this event had been conducted by RPTs, then surely many would have come.
--There are two Catholic churches in Moscow; in Petersburg there are six. What accounts for this disproportion?
--You know we get our churches from the government. So, as they say, let the wise man perceive. True, in Petersburg there always were more. Before the revolution there were 18 Catholic churches in Petersburg. And if one takes into account domestic churches, there were 29. Now six churches remain; the others were destroyed. It is easier to talk with the authorities in Petersburg. I have gone there four or five times every year. When necessary, both the governor and vice governor receive me. But in Moscow it is very hard to get to the mayor.
Before the revolution there were only three churches in Moscow. During the soviet era only one remained open, on Malaia Lubianka. Later we managed to get a church on Malaia Gruzinskaia. Unfortunately, the church of the holy apostles Peter and Paul still has not been returned. This is a most enormous problem. We have 27 masses on Sunday. It is physically impossible to serve in two churches. Besides, one must consider that every parishioner would want to attend mass in the morning or in the evening. This is a day of rest. Thus we serve both in the Anglo-American and Italian schools and in the American and German embassies. We serve three masses in chapels in the house of Sister Mother Teresa. Of course, we are thankful that they give us access to the gymnasium of the Anglo-American school. But there is no altar there so we set up a table and serve mass. So, we very, very much need a third church.
--It is not fashionable to praise Petersburg. Is this an element of political correctness?
--No, I did not have that in mind. I studied there, and I love that city. Besides, a fact is a fact; there are more parishes there; they have allocated buildings there; it is easier to talk with the authorities there.
--And why do you say that one must agree with authorities about the return of churches? Aren't they church property?
--Even the church allotted to us on Malaia Gryuzinskaia is not our property. This is a rent-free lease. If we built a new church it would be our property.
--Do you think that the soviet past has been overcome? And was that communism? Solzhenitsyn said there was no communism in USSR; it was ruled by gangsters who were cruel and cynical. Would you have anything to do with ideology; or was this simply a semicriminal regime that central Europe has basically abandoned?
--I think that there was an ideology that certain people used. Then it developed and became clear that something must change. But today these same people have authority. In the soviet period the church was separated from the state, but the state was not separated from the church. The state held it completely in its hands. True, there were differences among the republics of USSR. In Lithuania the Catholic church was persecuted, but it resisted strongly. Many people were put in jail. Even at the beginning of the 1980s they were put in jail. Archbishop Sygitas Tamkiavichus, metropolitan of Kaunas, was sentenced to ten years at the beginning of the 1980s. He was jailed in Mordova and Perm.
There were around 680 parishes, but barely more than 600 priests, in Lithuania. There was a seminary. But the authorities determined the number of students in the seminary. Thus an underground developed. At the time there was a Council on Religious Affairs upon which everything depended. Nobody was able to serve in a parish without the permission of the council. In my home village in Belorussia one priest asked me to replace him for a week. I served mass and then went out the side door; suddenly an agent for religious affairs showed up. He asked who served the mass. Then I was summoned by the Vilnius agent since a complaint had been filed. It was even worse in Russia. The priests fought. They served on side altars only, without confession. Has all of this ended or not? That is the question.
The law on freedom of conscience of 1990 was very democratic. Then in 1993 there were attempts to create a new law. But problems started in the Supreme Soviet and the law was buried. The draft of the 1997 law was much worse than the 1990 law. It was not so democratic and was contradictory. I fought fiercely for its improvement but made no progress. Today everybody sees that corrections are necessary. The government itself has created a commission to make them. Now there has arisen another idea about the creation of yet another law about so-called traditional religions. This was proposed by the deputy Chuev. I am categorically opposed to this law. According to the draft we Catholics probably will be recognized as a traditional confession. But it seems that the law will include Orthodox and Catholics, but not protestants. That is, the law on religion, which should encompass everybody, divides people into certain classes. The attempt to control freedom of conscience from above is a remnant of the soviet period.
--Which of the remnants from the soviet period are most dangerous in your view?
--There still are attempts to resurrect the council or department on religious affairs. I am very much afraid of this. A layer has appeared between a religious organization and actual state power. There appears to be no intent to give real power to the council on religious affairs, but everything must be filtered through it. There is developing another point for corruption nowadays in our society that even without it is corrupted. The Orthodox church says that it does not need this council because it has direct access to the authorities. They have it, but we do not.
One must think about this seriously. We do not need so many parishes and churches as the Moscow patriarchate does. But we still need one or two more churches in Moscow. In Kaliningrad, where there are so many Catholics, we still have not been able to get a single church. Historically there were three churches there, but we have not gotten a single one. A single chapel was built and now we are building a church.
In tsarist Russia Orthodoxy was the state religion. And, of course, relations between the government and the Orthodox church were very close. That is bad. The church should be separated from the state. Today we again see such a merger. At the World Russian Assembly, which was conducted in December of last year, many people were invited, but no Catholics. It is no problem that Kondrusiewicz wasn't invited. It was a blow to Catholic Russian citizens. It seems to me that the soviet past still is far from over.
On 9 May or 23 February the patriarch places flowers on the grave of the unknown soldier. Who else? There are no Muslims. Did not Muslims perish? Did nobody else perish? If we live in a pluralistic, democratic society, this is impossible. I shouldn't go first, but I should at least go. There is an Orthodox church on Poklonaia Gora, and there is an Islamic and Jewish house of worship. I have asked for something for us; but nothing has been worked out, not even the erecting of a cross.
--What does RPTs fear?
--I don't know.
--You really do not know.
--If I knew, I would keep it to myself. Here's an example. At eleven o'clock in the evening on 12 February Metropolitan Kirill speaks on ORT and presents the declaration of the Moscow patriarchate with regard to the Catholic dioceses. The next day I wrote my response, because the declaration is completely out of accord with canon law. On the morning of 13 February I called ORT and asked for two or three minutes air time. The response was that it did not depend on them; they needed to ask the command and call back. They still have not called back.
--The creation of the dioceses is sometimes connected in the press with the plans for a papal visit.
--There is no connection. Although the pope would very much like to come.
--In the aftermath of the soviet period, does the church itself have something to repent?
--The question should be expanded: during the soviet period was everything done for the proclamation of the word of God, for evangelization, for defense of human rights and freedom of conscience? I think that everything was not done. Probably the pope did the right thing in the jubilee year in serving a liturgy of repentance. We conducted a similar liturgy in the cathedral church in 2000 on Good Friday. We formulated our sins together. We priests know well the situation where people come for confession who have not been for 20 or 30 or even 50 years. This was a very long confession, and the person must be aided in preparation. I think that confession is not a manifestation of weakness but of strength and courage.
I would advocate that all denominations and religions should get together for an interconfessional worship service. The leader of each confession should repent for the sins of the nation. We say very often that the communists killed and that KGB killed. But where did these people come from. Did they drop off the moon? Lenin came from Switzerland, but he was born in Russia. The church is a divine-human organism, and it is human to err. But there is no need to nail a man to the cross for mistakes. A person who errs repents for it. Peter also betrayed Christ three times. But he still became the "rock." And Christ gave the keys to nobody else. To sin is human. But it is still sin. It is still satanic.
--Does the idea of joint repentance receive any response on the part of the Moscow patriarchate?
--So far, no. We have the Christian Interconfessional Consultative Committee. On the eve of the jubilee 2000 year we raised this question. But it found no support. Take the last bishops' council of RPTs. It made the decision that it is impossible for us to worship together. Repentance would benefit society very much. Society would trust the church much more. And our state leaders would join such repentance and be morally supported by it.
--How do Muslims relate to your suggestions? Did you talk with the supreme mufti, Talgot Tajuddin, about these matters?
--We have met and we have proper relations. But I have met more often with the Moscow mufti, Ravil Gainudin. Tajuddin spoke out against the creation of our structures. I do not know why; he always has treated me well. At one time Muslims approached me with a request to set up a reception for the pope. We helped to organize it. When the pope was in Poland, some of them also asked for a meeting with the pope and for subsequent worship.
--After the fall of USSR was it necessary for you to rid yourself of improper cooperation with the authorities?
--There is a pope; there are bishops; in addition there is the matter of a person's conscience. The person must talk about everything, repent, and then a decision is made by the hierarchy. But in Russia there were only two elderly Catholic priests. So the question simply disappeared. These priests are not even alive now.
--Russian society is in a profound crisis--social, moral, psychological, demographic. How is such a situation dangerous and what ways out does the church propose?
--All of this is a challenge to society, the church, and all religions. For ten years now we have been building a new society. It is said that the economy is recovering. On the other hand, if everything again is attached to the prices of petroleum and gas, then we have returned to the soviet era when everything was good because the price of black gold was high. And this is not the way out of the situation. What's worse is the spiritual hardness. It is difficult to explain: we see that a war is going on and our government and president are enjoying very great popularity among the people. The people are somehow dumbfounded. There are soldiers' mothers, but their voice is barely heard. But many people are dying. All the bodies from the first Chechen war have still not been identified. And we are still looking at it in this way: it's not my business. This speaks of the most profound spiritual crisis of the individual. He is looking only at himself and does not see the one standing next to him.
There is no moral basis for constructing society and developing the individual. That is the heritage of seventy years of atheist education. I am a Catholic bishop, but nevertheless I maintain that the basic task of the spiritual regeneration of Russia lies primarily on the shoulders of the Orthodox church. It is the main church. We are ready to share the achievements of Catholics. In the course of seventy years the Orthodox church was restricted in its activity and did not get out of the walls of the church. But this is intolerable. The church is not of this world, but it is in this world. And it must bear its problems. I am happy that social doctrines have appeared. The social doctrine of the Catholic church is 110 years old. A lot can be shared.
Of the Catholic church itself I can say that here in Russia and other parts of USSR we suffered a kind of clinical death. We managed to survive, but after clinical death a person takes a long time to recover. At the present time we have in Russia around 600,000 believers in 212 parishes. If we also take various kinds of charitable organizations and educational institutions, into account, then there will be about 250 organizations. We have 270 priests, 85% of whom are foreigners from 22 different countries. There are around 270 monks and nuns, almost all foreigners. At the same time, 27% of our parishes do not have a place for services. We have a seminary in Petersburg where 70 seminarians are studying. Just three years ago I ordained the first priests who had been trained in Russia. For 81 years before this nobody had been ordained. There are various commissions that are necessary for the functioning of the church. Special significance is assigned to the liturgical commission and the publication of liturgical books and aids in the Russian language. You know, in the course of seventy years not a single book was published. In ten years we have published around 400 titles, of which the chief is the catechism of the Catholic church in the Russian language. Its fourth edition is now in press. Also published are the documents of the Second Vatican council, canon law, a book of remembrance, and the first volume of the "Catholic Encyclopedia."
--State your impressions of the spiritual condition of Russian society.
--At the beginning of the 90s there was great interest in the church in Russia. Everybody was getting baptized. But that was a fashion. Very many were baptized and disappeared. A stereotype was left; "I have been baptized; I am a Christian." But what comes next? I think that very many of these baptized persons do not know either the "Our Father" or the Ten Divine Commandments. That is, further work was not conducted or it was conducted weakly. We Catholics baptize an adult only after a year's preparation. And then come catechesis, catechesis, and yet again catechesis. The pope says that new evangelism and catechesis is the greatest task of the church today. It always was, and it will be. It is always necessary to study and to study.
The Holy Spirit acts. He comes through the sacrament. It is necessary to open one's self to him. It is necessary to cooperate with him. What will happen if I close the door that leads to the heart? It can be opened to Christ only from the inside. It is impossible to open it from the outside. It was not in vain that Saint Augustine said: "God, you have made me without me. But without me, you cannot save me." There is an enormous field for work in Russia and there is still a long way to go to reach true spirituality.
--The Russian news media perform a function in educating the population that is similar to yours. How do you see the situation in Russian media?
--On the whole, I would wish that the press were independent. We are grateful for such publications as Nezavisimaia gazeta and for objective reporting of the religious problem. But what has been happening recently in the sphere of the media causes concern about the future of the press. Once again everywhere the holding companies, concerns, and big money are getting into the game. Besides all this is connected with the political interests of the government. This could lead to sad results. I am seriously concerned for the future of the press.
--That means that someone should support the press. The question of dependence upon the owner and source of funds is inescapable.
--To a great extent the conduct of the press is a matter of conscience. People come to us with a proposal for advertisements, but we should be scrupulous about our own principles.
--Who among the politicians of Europe and the world evokes your respect?
--General de Gaulle. He loved his nation and fought for its liberation. He was a man of very high morality. I recall when I was a student in the second year of the polytechnical institute in Leningrad. Before an examination in Marxist-Leninist philosophy I went to a Sunday morning mass so that afterward I would be ready for failure. The priest asked me to assist since de Gaulle was supposed to attend the mass. He attended the liturgy even when he was making an official visit. And when the old priest came up to him to give communion the general got up from his seat, walked forward, fell to his knees, and took communion. For a student facing an examination in Marxist-Leninist philosophy this made an enormous impression. Lech Walesa did much. He possessed charisma, without which it would have been impossible to become a leader. Of contemporary politicians I esteem Waclav Havel.
--Is there a specific policy in the church with respect to youth? What prospects for work with youth in Russia. do you see?
--The pope says this: "Youth are the future of the world, the future of the church." In Russia we proceed from our modest possibilities. Every three years the church holds the World Day of Youth. Today much is said about the lack of spirituality of youth. Recently the pope assembled two million persons. For some reason, they needed the pope. Boris Yeltsin visited the pope in 1997 and raised the question of the youth, suggesting to assemble young Catholics and Orthodox together.
--Do you think that other churches will cooperate in this area? After all, there is competition for the future.
--In May of last year we held an inter-Christian conference for youth in Moscow. Metropolitan Kirill was there, along with me and other representatives of Christian confessions of Russia. Many young Catholics and Orthodox said to me: "We do not understand why there are mutual accusations at the level of the hierarchs. We do not see any problems in fellowship. Everybody remains in his own confession, but we need to respond to the challenges of the time." We need to unite our efforts.
--What kind of youth join your flock?
--Different kinds, mainly students. Not every priest can deal with youth. It is not necessary that a person be a young priest. But it is necessary to have charisma. That's why the pope draws people to himself.
--It seems that you have a rather high proportion of intelligentsia in your parishioners.
--We love working with them. But it is necessary to train personnel for this. We are trying to identify these people in the seminary. One deals in charity while another gets on better with youth, and a third type is drawn to the intelligentsia. So there exist various orders with their own priorities. The Jesuits and Dominicans deal with the intelligentsia, while the Franciscans deal with charity, and others deal with youth, and so on.
--What kind of goals does the church have with regard to the state of the family in Russia?
--The family is in profound crisis. According to recent data the number of divorces has reached 50%, while among young families it is 70% of marriages. This is a tragedy not only for the adults. In the country, according to various calculations, from two to four million children are homeless. This is even more than at the time of the civil war. The number of abortions ranges from 2.6 million officially to 6 million unofficially every year. This is twice the average in the world. We are talking about threats to Russia. Society is aging. The population of the country shrinks by 600 to 800 thousand every year. The family must be founded on a spiritual basis, but this is very complex. As in the matter of the youth, here various churches must unite their efforts.
--Are there special programs for helping the family?
--We have a family center in Moscow, Petersburg, and Kaliningrad. We want to create these in the parishes. At the present time intensive training of specialists is under way. There are physicians and other laity who work on the problems of the family. We train them here and abroad. In Rome there is a special papal council of family matters which is headed by Cardinal Lopez Truhilo. He has been in Russia several times now. Every year in Moscow we conduct several symposia. Recently there has been observed a tendency of good cooperation with the RPTs regarding the family. From 30 May to 2 June the Catholic church and public organizations of Moscow will conduct a conference on this topic.
--Can you briefly assess the decisions of the Second Vatican council in the context of Russian conditions?
--These decisions were a response to the demands of the time. There was no element of accommodation to them. Councils are not held every decade--once a century or even several centuries. Although today life is so persistent that a new council possibly will be assembled in the near future. It is necessary to respond to challenges that time throws out. Before the Second Vatican council the church seemed to be an impenetrable fortress. Pope John 23, who opened the council, "opened the Vatican's window," and the air of the world blew in and the voice of this world was heard. I wrote my dissertation about the council.
The council tried to answer the question: "Church, what will you say about yourself?" In response the church returned to its sources, the teaching of Christ, sacred scripture, and tradition. Here we completely coincide with the Orthodox church. It was again shown that the church is not just a building, the pope, bishops, priests, and monks. It is primarily the whole people of God. Everybody together. And, of course, there are more simple folk. We cannot separate from them. Liturgics must not be for walls but for people. The Second Vatican council was a genuine revolution in liturgics. The church returned to individuals and began speaking a language they could understand. Although we have not eliminated Latin. Today in Russia we conduct mass in ten languages.
As regards the church's attitude to the world, the Pastoral Constitution was adopted. It begins with the words: "The hope and joy of the individual is the hope and joy of the church." The church enters an individual's life. In that is viewed a whole complex of relations: to politics, society, the state, family, youth, and economics. This is a kind of social doctrine of the church. Further, we live in a pluralistic society. RPTs also should recognize that Russia is a multiconfessional state.
--How does the Catholic church relate to other confessions?
--In Russia the notion of the Catholic church usually is associated with the Latin rite. Indeed, that's 98% of all believers. But 2 % are still in the eastern rite of the Catholic church. in Ukraine around 5 or 6 million are Greek Catholics. There is the Armenian rite, and so forth. Here there can be a good bridge to the unity of Christians. The claim that the pope will take command is completely untrue. These rites are separate churches that are governed by their own rules and have their own leadership. But they all are in union with Rome and in union with the pope. If we want to be united, the center always will be united. There are not two centers. Such a situation could also exist in relations among Orthodox churches. Here we are getting into the question of the primacy of Peter, which Pope John Paul II wants to make not some superpower but a kind of ministry and visible basis for unity. After all even Christ said: "the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve" (Mt 20.28)
We recognize that the sacraments that the Orthodox church performs are the very same sacraments that we perform, because the sacred gifts are there. I genuflect when I enter a Catholic or Orthodox church. Today we do not have eucharistic unity, but this is a matter of discipline. Ecumenical law permits a Catholic to go to confession and take communion from an Orthodox priest if the circumstances are such that there is no Catholic church nearby. When I worked as an engineer and traveled to cities of Russia where there was no Catholic priest, then I went to the Orthodox church on Sunday and worshipped. The same sacraments are there. This opens up great ecumenical prospects and possibilities for dialogue. And it seems that the church is separate from politics and from the state. But it retains to itself the right of a moral evaluation of the activity of the state.
--Does RPTs also recognize the right for its flock to worship in a Catholic church if there is no Orthodox one nearby?
--In soviet time it was even permitted to take communion in Catholic parishes, but at the end of the 70s this was rescinded.
--Do you consider Russia a part of Europe? Does the church need to facilitate the rapprochement of Russia with Europe?
--When about ten years ago the central European countries turned to
Europe the pope answered: "But you already are in Europe since Europe extends
to the Urals." If we talk about people and culture, then even in the Asiatic
part of Russia there also are Europeans. The creation of a united Europe,
the Europarliament, the single currency, these are challenges for all of
us, including even Christians. If political and economic forces have united,
then why can't we Christians do this. On one hand, it is good that the
countries of CIS have gained independence. But how many families have been
divided. And perhaps the model that Europe has chosen could help us solve
this problem. I am a proponent of Russia's approach to Europe in the political
and economic sense, because this will lead to the development of democracy
in our society. And also to the development of the inter-Christian ecumenical
movement. Today they talk about Europe. But perhaps in the future the talk
will be about "greater Eurasia." Why not, if everybody wants it? (tr. by
PDS, posted 27 March 2002)
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