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Discussion of President Medvedev's program of religion in schools and army

ROUND TABLE:  "RELIGIOUS POLITICS IN RUSSIA: FROM FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE TO OBLIGATORY STATE IDEOLOGY?"
by Yuliia Zaitseva
Blagovest-info, 24 September 2009

Sharp and hard-hitting debate characterized a round table on the topic "Religious politics in Russia:  from freedom of conscience to obligatory state ideology?," which was held on 22 September in the Institute of Religion and Law. The questions of the implementation of the decision of the president of the Russian federation regarding introduction of a mandatory school subject "Foundations of religious culture" and the creation of the institution of the military chaplaincy stood at the center of the discussion. The majority of the round table participants think that such innovations cannot be "imposed from above;" they should be discussed thoroughly and broadly in society, taking into account all the specifics of confessional diversity. The discussion involved religious studies scholars and historians and representatives of religious organizations and news media. The Russian Orthodox church was represented by the director of the Synodal Department for Relations between Church and Society, Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin, and a member of the Council for Conducting State Religious Expert Analysis and head of the Rights Protection Center of the World Russian National Council, Roman Silantiev.

None of the round table participants cast any doubt on the necessity of the spiritual and moral training of the younger generation in Russia, although the version proposed by the presidentÑa mandatory course in "Foundations of Religious Culture" with the options of the four "traditional" religionsÑwas rejected by a majority of speakers.  Moral training is the business of the family and not public schools; the Russian Orthodox church actually is pursuing evangelistic and not educational and enlightening goals; this plan infringes the rights of religious minorities; it will not consolidate but split society on the basis of religious identityÑthese have now become the traditional bunch of arguments against conducting this experiment that was contained in the addresses of representatives of the Russian Orthodox Old Believer church, Aleksei Shishkin and Andrei Ezerov, Professor of the Russian Academy of Labor Ekaterina Elbakian, the well known religious studies scholar Sergei Filatov, Doctor of Historical Sciences Anatoly Krasikov, and representative of the Church of Seventh-day Adventists Viktor Vitko, and others. Professor of the Russian Academy of State Services Olga Vasilieva even expressed the suggestion that the topic of "Spiritual and moral culture" has been intentionally inserted into public consciousness in order to divert attention from more serious problems. The speaker thinks that the implementation of the president's project is still very far off; it is simply impossible to find teachers for the six specialties (foundations of Orthodoxy, Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism, as well as for the courses in the History of Religions and Secular Ethics) within the near future (and the experiment is supposed to begin in 18 regions of the Russian federation by spring of 2010).

After hearing sharp criticism of RPTs, Fr Vsevolod Chalin issued a call for a broad dialogue. The priest frequently repeated that every "worldview group" has the right to fulfill its spiritual requirements in such state and public institutions as the schools and the army. Fr Vsevolod is an advocate of the "possibility of worldview choice" in these spheres, while he stressed that he opposes a monopoly of the "skeptical view" on religion imposed back in soviet times in educational institutions and he also opposes the ideological dictation of a liberal worldview. The head of the synodal department noted especially that the presence of various "worldview groups" in the schools, army, and news media should be "adequate." "It is strange to hear that some group that has only a few adherents in the armed forces demands access for evangelistic activity among the entire personnel of a military unit."

At the same time he agreed that "some religious minorities have been forgotten" during the preparation of the presidential orders and he even promised in the name of RPTs to help those religious groups who "still have not found for themselves a way to exercise their world view choice in the schools and army." In addition, on his part he also noted "deplorable cases of attacks against religious minorities," in which "often the Orthodox side was guilty." Such cases should be investigated, recognizing that "often some protestant groups masquerade as Orthodox, roiling the atmosphere."

Roman Silantiev was more categorical. He sharply rejected the accusation of discrimination against some confessions, which have been sounded against RPTs. "The church has increased in a natural way and nobody is discriminated against," he maintained, adding however that "traditional" religions should have "certain privileges" in Russia, in accordance with their contribution to the history and culture of the country. The origin of the anti-church informational campaign is obvious to R. Silantiev: "clericalization" is most often the concern of militant atheists and satanists, among whom "all the restÑBaptists, representatives of alternative OrthodoxyÑare joined and act as a united front, and along with them, the US State Department." R. Silantiev also thinks that there is no basis for "the irrational panic" of criticism of the Expert Council in the Ministry of Justice headed by A. Dvorkin, of which he himself is a member. In Silantiev's opinion, the action of collection of signatures against the council, "No to Inquisitors," initiated by Pentecostals, has only harmed their reputation.

Other round table participants expressed suggestions directed to finding a broad public dialogue. Thus Aleksei Shishkin insisted that the moral renewal of society can happen only on a non-confessional basis. He suggested finding a moral consensus within the parameters of a broad "social pact." A. Krasikov thinks that the most fitting area for discussion of the most important spiritual and moral problems is the Intercouncil Office established at the last Local Council of RPTs; he added that believers of various confessions, as well as nonbelievers, could take part in this discussion. Sergei Filatov sharply criticized the contemporary moral condition of clergy of RPTs, calling them to study the teachings of the religious bases of Catholics and Lutherans. The head of the All-Russian "Education" Foundation, Sergei Komkov, is sure that it is necessary "to expand the list of religions" given access to the schools.

Andrei Sebentsov, a well known specialist in the area of state-confessional relations, a government advisor first class, called attention to the fact that in the course of stormy discussions it remains unnoticed that among the three educational models proposed by the Russian president there is a course in the "History and foundations of culture of the main world religions." It is this "noncontroversial, religious studies oriented" course that A. Sebentsov suggested would seem to be the most popular in the provinces during the experiment.

In addition, he touched on the problems of the military chaplaincy and criticized the corresponding draft law prepared by the Ministry of Defense.  Bishop Konstantin Bendas, a representative of the Russian Associated Union of Christians of Evangelical Faith, expressed concern that the provision for military chaplains, discriminating against "nontraditional" believers, might be introduced by edict, without public discussion. Professor Olga Vasilieva also sees a multitude of problems in the proposed model of the military chaplaincy. She emphasized that the question of the moral climate in the army directly affects the majority of the population of our country, and she called the public to raise the question of a broad discussion of this draft law.  (tr. by PDS, posted 30 September 2009)

Russian original posted on Portal-credo.ru site, 29 September 2009

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Protestants fear prohibition of evangelism

YURI SIPKO:  "ATTORNEYS ARE TRYING TO SQUEEZE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM INTO A SOVIET PEN"
Press Service, Russian Union of Evangelical Christians-Baptists, 23 September 2009

The president of the Russian Union of Evangelical Christians-Baptists (RSEKhB), Yuri Sipko, gave an interview about the new draft of amendments to the law on freedom of conscience and religious organizations.

--Yuri Kirillovich, a report about the round table that was held was published on the web site of the Ministry of Justice, in which a draft of amendments to the law on freedom of conscience and religious organizations was discussed. The report says that you were among the round table participants. What kind of amendments are proposed for the law on freedom of conscience?

--Indeed, there was a round table in the Ministry of Justice to which representatives of religious confessions and religious studies scholars were invited. The Ministry of Justice proposed to discuss the suggested amendments in the law on freedom of conscience and religious organizations. I am very grateful to the director of the Department for Affairs of Noncommercial Organizations, Sergei Yurevich Milushkin, for the invitation.

It was proposed to introduce into the law a provision that a religious group that desires, in the future, to receive the status of legal entity must submit information about its activity not to agencies of the local administration but to a territorial agency for the registration of organizations. In addition, that agency is required to issue confirmation of receipt of the information within a three-day period. It is clear that such a proposal merely straightens out the work of governmental agencies of justice. It did not evoke any concern.

It became clear that the most substantive suggestion was a proposal to introduce into the law on freedom of conscience an article regulating evangelistic activity.

--Does the RSEKhB support "the initiative of the Russian Ministry of Justice for defining the legal conditions for conducting evangelistic activity and the activities of religious groups"? What is your position on this question?

Up until the present time all attempts to create a law on evangelistic activity or to introduce such an article into the existing law have encountered serious opposition from the religious and academic communities.

This time the round table manifested amazing unity. All participants emphasized the necessity of introducing such amendments, urgent necessity, and even the desire of religious organizations for such. I was just about the only one who expressed doubt regarding the necessity of introducing amendments and the attempt to regulate evangelistic activity. Alexander Grigorievich Zaluzhny also expressed concern that implementation of the law will probably be difficult in light of our extreme bureaucratization, and the main thing is the imprecision of the concept of "evangelistic activity" that the Ministry of Justice itself has to work out the consequences of.

And now I think, after the conclusion of the discussion, that the Justice Ministry's proposal to introduce into the law on freedom of conscience a section about evangelistic activity is not timely. In addition, I am sure that such an addition to the current law will only add contradictions in practice. It is obvious that the most active phase of religious activity is long past. Practically all public spaces for religious activity by non-Orthodox religious organizations have been closed.  It is extremely difficult to perform even socially meaningful services, if not impossible. Under these circumstances, for a revival of civic activity it would be necessary to adopt measures for a liberation of the potential of religious organizations. After all, all of President Medvedev's calls, expressed in his direct message "Russia Ahead!", remain on the Internet precisely because of the absence of an active civil society in the country. It appears to me that the religious stratum is the most organized, modeled and close-knit. This is the golden foundation of the country. Honest, law-abiding citizens, strong, usually families with many children, sacrificial in their service to the fatherland. These are the people who have the internal strength, the very backbone, that helps them to live honestly and not to fall apart. For the country today, the most important thing is to create conditions of freedom of religious confession and to give freedom to religious activity as the Russian constitution calls for.  But no! We are again falling into the old trap: "Regulate," "Monitor," "Grant permission," "Submit the information that you need a document, that they need a document."

Even the very formulation of the definition of evangelistic activityÑ"enticing people into a religious organization"Ñis taken uniformly negatively on the day-to-day basis.

--In your view, what is the basic problem of this draft law?

--The main thing is that attorneys are trying to squeeze religious freedom, constitutionally established, back into that soviet pen when freedom to believe was declared and nobody was supposed to speak about it. It is obvious that the proposed draft law corresponds to the ancient dream of forbidding some people to proselytize. This specter of the weak-willed ministers of a cult gives them no rest. My objections are based on the fact that the articles about evangelistic activity will only produce additional tensions in society.

There exists in the constitution an article that declares:  "Each person is guaranteed freedom of conscience and freedom of religious confession, including the right to confess individually or jointly with others any religion or not to confess any, to select, possess, and promote freely religious and any other convictions and to act in accordance with them." I understand this article as the recognition of the right of each person to be a free individual. To possess convictions, to promote them, and to change them!

The attempt of legislators to prohibit such freedom, based on the good intention of protecting citizens from "aggressive evangelists who, some with bread and some with hypnosis, seduce weak-willed persons, attracting them into their sects." But now, without that meager charitable activity, it will come to naught. After all, any good deed will be interpreted as "attracting," and with the use of material benefits, at that. Attorneys of the Ministry of Justice maintain that their draft does not have even a hint of depriving a citizen of the Russian federation of the constitutional right to freedom of promoting their religious convictions. The draft law, they say, only regulates the activity of religious organizations. My attempts to get a specific example of when a religious organization is engaged in "attracting" people who are not members of the particular organization into their religious organization produced no results. There wasn't even a hypothetical example. But the draft of the law forbids evangelistic activity by members of a religious organization without special permission for it and an issued document. And this is what it will be like in reality. I start to converse with citizen "N". And at some moment our conversation about the meaning of life leads me to the point where I begin to describe for him the core of my faith, that is, the very meaning of life. After all, without faith there is no meaning, for faith is the substance of things hoped for and the assurance of things unseen. Of course, I try to represent the church of Evangelical Christians-Baptists graphically, where such a perfect meaning of life that leads to the kingdom of God is preached. I have already pulled out my notebook. Here's the address. Here's how to get to our church. Here's the time of our services. And then up comes a ubiquitous representative of the competent organs: "Citizen. Your documents. Which organization are you from? Where is your permission for evangelistic activity? Come on." "Why? I was simply having a conversation. He asked me himself."  "Come on." And his hands are behind his back. After all, it is obvious that such kind of "attracting" is always the decision of a free man, a response of his free will, an exercise of the right to obtain information, an exercise of the right to free choice of a worldview, that is, freedom of conscience. But the draft law not only amasses such prohibitions, it also introduces the responsibility of the director of the religious organization for the member of his organization, if he violates this law. And again the battle goes on. The director of the religious organization will not give anybody permission for evangelistic activity in any case, and he will be deprived of his rights and the organization will be closed. And that's the end of proselytizing. Or the end of freedom. Or it was never so. And that's why I was opposed. (tr. by PDS, posted 24 September 2009)

JUSTICE MINISTRY PROPOSES TO INTRODUCE AMENDMENTS TO LAW ON RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS.
Press service, Ministry of Justice, 18 September 2009

On 18 September 2009, at 11:00, a session of a "round table" for discussion of amendments and additions to the federal law of 26 September 1997, "On freedom of conscience and religious associations," was held in the auditorium of the college of the Ministry of Justice of the Russian federation.

Participants in the session, held under the chairmanship of the director of the Department for Affairs of Noncommercial Organizations, S.Yu. Milushkin, included representatives of religious organizations:  Fr Vsevolod (chairman of the "Synodal Department of the Russian Orthodox church of the Moscow patriarchate for Relations between Church and Society"), K.A. Chernega (judicial consultant of the Moscow patriarchate), F.A. Asadullin (director of the Committee on Science of the Central Muslim Religious Organizaation of the Council of Muftis of Russia), I.L. Kovalevsky (general secretary of the Conference of Catholic Bishops of Russia), A.T. Semchenko (president of the centralized religious organization Union of Evangelical Christian Churches), Sh.M. Kadyprulov (Central Ecclesiastical Board of Muslims of Russia), Yu.K. Sipko (president of the religious organization "Russian Union of Evangelical Christians-Baptists"), Sandjei-lama (permanent president of the Buddhist Traditional Sangkha of Russia in Moscow), Z.L. Kogan (chairman of the centralized religious organization "Congress of Jewish Religious Organizations and Associations in Russia"); and representatives of the academic community: I.N. Yalokov (head of the department of philosophy of religion and religious studies of Lomonosov Moscow State University), A.G. Zaluzhny (professor of the department of national security of the Russian Academy of State Services within the presidential administration of the Russian federation), and other persons.

The participants in the round table supported the initiative of the Russian Ministry of Justice for defining the legal conditions for conducting evangelistic activity and the activities of religious groups. In the unanimous opinion of the round table participants, the draft law is pertinent and timely. The authors of the draft law emphasized in their statements that it is directed to the achievement of legal guarantees for the exercise by citizens of their constitutional rights in the sphere of freedom of conscience and participation in religious associations.

Statements by the round table participants expressed suggestions with regard to this draft law and these were received for attention by the Ministry of Justice of the Russian federation. (tr. by PDS, posted 24 September 2009)

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Violence between Orthodox churches in Ukraine

SCHISMATICS IN UKRAINE SEIZE ANOTHER CHURCH, BRUTALLY BEATING PRIESTS AND PARISHIONERS
Interfax, 15 September 2009

Another seizure of a church building of the canonical Orthodox church was carried out by schismatics from the "Kiev patriarchate" in Ukraine.

The incident occurred in the village of Zhuklia of Chernigov province. About 60 persons, including priests from both local and neighboring settlements, rose to the defense of the church, the official Internet site of the Ukrainian Orthodox church reported on Tuesday.

Originally 20 schismatics gathered at the church, while later a certain Dmitry Protsik came to the village, who identified himself as "Bishop Ilarion," and he was accompanied by "fighters from fascist-nationalist organizations" on busses. At the same time, "policemen opened up the way and silently observed the brawl," the report states.

"People were beaten with fists, legs, and heavy objects, and they were sprayed with gas from cartridges. As a result, four UPTs priests were taken to the hospital in serious condition," the site notes.

One of them, Archimadrite Varfolomey, the abbot of the Nativity of the Holy Mother of God monastery, "from whom the thugs removed a cross and beat him about the head with the cross, was picked up with an open head wound by his servants and taken to Kiev for treatment."

Another two priests went to the hospital for aid, where they were diagnosed with "brain concussion." The one who suffered the most was the press secretary of Chernigov diocese, Archpriest Zakhary Kerstiuk. He was admitted to the hospital in serious condition, where after examination he was diagnosed with "cranial trauma, brain concussion, multiple body contusions, chest and spinal injuries."

The UPTs web site alleges that before the incident the Chernigov provincial administration "illegally decided to transfer the church building to the apostate schismatics." (tr. by PDS, posted 16 September 2009)

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Expert analysis favors Jehovah's Witnesses

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES INTEND TO APPEAL JUDICIAL DECISION CALLING THEIR CONGREGATION IN TAGANROG EXTREMIST TO RUSSIAN SUPREME COURT
Portal-credo.ru, 16 September 2009

The Jehovah's Witnesses will appeal the decision of the Rostov provincial court ruling the local religious organization in the city of Taganrog extremist and liquidating it to the Supreme Court of the Russian federation, a "Portal-credo.ru" correspondent was told at the press service of the Administration Center of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia (UTsSI)

In a release on 14 September by UTsSI for news media, the decision of the Rostov provincial court was called "non-objective" and "illegal," that could set back conditions in the sphere of religious freedoms in the country by 50 years.

In information from the UTsSI press service also pointed to the incorrectness of the judicial decision that was issued, since the conclusions of an expert analysis that were presented to the court indicated that "propaganda of their own exclusivity and superiority is an inevitable characteristic of any religion." In addition, a religious studies specialist, a participant in the expert analysis group, pointed directly to the absence in the Jehovah's Witnesses' printed material reviewed by the court of statements "about the inferiority of a person based on indications of his religious affiliation or attitude toward religion." Rather, the expert noted, they contain evidence in favor of the freedom of choice of religion. (tr. by PDS, posted 16 September 2009)

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Expert criticizes court ban of Jehovah's Witnesses

BAN ON ACTIVITY OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES IN TAGANROG MAY NEGATIVELY IMPACT RELATIONS OF RUSSIA WITH PARTNERS IN STRUGGLE WITH TERRORISM
Portal-credo.ru, 15 September 2009

In information from the press service of the Rostov provincial court pertaining to the decision of the provincial court of 11 September 2009 "On recognizing the local 'Taganrog' Jehovah's Witnesses organization as extremist and its liquidation," there is a list of 34 sources (specific issues of the "Awake" and "Watchtower" magazines, books, and pamphlets) having a doctrinal character and being distributed among Jehovah's Witnesses believers and used for evangelistic purposes. All of the 34 enumerated sources contain "extremist materials."

The court also issued a ruling "to include the indicated literature and informational materials in the federal list of extremist materials" and "to confiscate the indicated literature and informational materials."

Having ruled the corresponding literature as extremist, on the basis of the suit filed by the prosecutor's office, the court found the local "Taganrog" religious organization of Jehovah's Witnesses extremist, liquidated it, and prohibited the activity of the local Jehovah's Witnesses organization on the territory of Taganrog itself and in the Neklinov and Matveevo-Kurgan regions of Rostov province and ordered that the "property of the local 'Taganrog' Jehovah's Witnesses organization be remanded to the ownership of the Russian federation."

At the same time all 34 sources, as appears from the cited list, were published in Germany and USA.  This is the largest list of literature of the Jehovah's Witnesses in the whole postsoviet history of reviews by Russian courts of cases regarding the liquidation of Jehovah's Witnesses congregations.

In the opinion of an expert from the International Institute of Humanities and Political Research, Mikhail Zherebiatiev, which he expressed in an interview with a "Portal-credo.ru" correspondent, "in light of the prospects of an appeal by the Jehovah's Witnesses of the decision of the provincial court to the European Court of Human Rights, which has considerable experience in reviewing complaints from this religious organization from various countries, the decision to find 34 sources extremist is quite indefensible."

In addition, the expert suggests, the decision of the Rostov court casts doubt on the partnership in the sphere of the struggle with religious radicalism and terrorism, which exists between Russia, USA, and Germany. "Instead of struggling with real terrorism arising on a religious basis, unfortunately in Russia they are trying to apply the extremist label to a religious organization that isn't hiding from anybody and is respectable according to the standards of law-based states. And this is how, most likely, the decisions of the Rostov and other Russian courts against Jehovah's Witnesses will be assessed by Russia's partners in the antiterrorist coalition," the expert of the International Institute of Humanities and Political Research, Mikhail Zherebiatiev, suggests.

Besides, the expert thinks, a really objective review of the lawsuits against Jehovah's Witnesses is impossible without taking into account the opinions and statements about this religious organization of its opponents who are active in the confessional field as well as a recognition of the right of any religious organization of whatever confession to doctrinal exclusivity (without which any confessional form of religion loses all meaning). "That is, the question in the courts should take the following form: how correctly does the religious organization represent its confessional exclusivity against the background of what the competitors of this organization are doing," Mikhail Zherebiatiev thinks. (tr. by PDS, posted 15 September 2009)

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Russian court declares congregation extremist

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES BANNED IN TAGANROG
Interfax, 14 September 2009

The congregation of "Jehovah's Witnesses" that was active in Taganrog has been ruled extremist and in connection with this it was decided to prohibit it.

The law suit against the city's congregation of Jehovists was filed on 11 June 2008 by the prosecutor of Rostov province. The court ruled in favor of the prosecutor's claim, the press service of the court reported on Monday.

According to the judicial decision, the property of the given organization must be taken over as Russian property, the literature of the "Witnesses" and the informational materials they distribute are declared extremist, and they are to be included in the federal list of extremist materials and confiscated.

The decision takes effect ten days after its adoption.  (tr. by PDS, posted 14 September 2009)

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Popular support for religion in schools

ALMOST 70% OF RUSSIANS APPROVE INTRODUCING FOUNDATIONS OF ORTODOXY INTO SCHOOLS
Interfax, 3 September 2009

Russians do not speak against the introduction of the "Foundations of Orthodox culture" class in the schools, a Russia-wide survey showed. Almost 70% of Russians polled approved of the introduction of this subject into the schools; a quarter of respondents stated that they related to this idea "generally positively," and 44%, "rather positively," sociologists of the "Levada Center" told Interfax on Thursday.

Study of this topic was conducted 14 to 17 August in 128 population points of 46 regions of the country with 1,600 respondents participating, of whom a fifth (19%) did not support introduction of foundations of Orthodoxy into Russian schools.

According to the survey, 72% of Russians also think that elementary education in the national republics of the Russian federation should be conducted in both Russian and national languages, in accordance with the wishes of parents, and 21% are convinced that it should be in Russian only, while the rest (7%) had difficulty expressing their opinion on this question.

"Foundations of Orthodox culture" has been taught in a number of Russian regions over the past several years. In November 2007 the church presented the Minister of Education Andrei Fursenko a proposal for introducing this subject into the school curriculum.

It has been proposed that in three years the Foundations of Orthodoxy, along with the foundations of Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and secular ethics (in accordance with the pupils' choice), will be introduced into the required curriculum of schools on a Russia-wide basis, within the framework of a new discipline, "Spiritual-moral training." In the meantime these topics will be taught in 18 regions in the fourth quarter of the fourth grade and first quarter of the fifth.

Around 20,000 classes in 12,000 schools, with around 256,000 children and 44,000 teachers, will participate in the experiment. According to the suggestion of the Ministry of Education, the first classes taking part in the experiment could begin in the spring of 2010.

At the end of July 2009, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, at a meeting with religious leaders of the country, supported the idea of teaching foundations of religious culture and secular ethics in the schools.  (tr. by PDS, posted 4 September 2009)

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Protestants concerned about teaching religion in schools

RUSSIAN PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS TO WORK OUT UNIFIED POSITION ON TEACHING RELIGION IN SCHOOLS
Portal-credo.ru, 4 September 2009

By 15 September the protestant denominations of Russia will work out a unified position on questions of teaching about religion in general education schools and the introduction of chaplains into the army, Blagovest-info reports, citing "protestant.ru."

The "protestant.ru" web site learned this from the ruling bishop president of the Union of Evangelical Christians, Alexander Semchenko. "It is no secret," he noted, "that these innovations have been subjected to sharp criticism amongst Russian evangelical believers."

According to Alexander Semchenko's information, the leadership of protestant associations have authorized the Slavic Legal Center to work out the legal basis for their common position. The unified point of view of Russian protestants will be disseminated through the news media to broad strata of the public, and there also is the intention to appeal to the presidential administration of the Russian federation, suggesting that the position of the protestant churches be respected "as the opinion of a large number of citizens of Russia who are vitally interested in this question."  (tr. by PDS, posted 4 September 2009)



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